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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Intelligence detective Gary Jenkins sits down with veteran Chicago journalist Chuck Goudie, whose decades of reporting have made him one of Chicago’s most respected voices on organized crime. A fan of the show asked for more Chicago stories—and this conversation delivers.
We dive into the legacy of the Spilotro family, sparked by the recent passing of John Spilotro, brother of the infamous Las Vegas mob figure Tony Spilotro. Chuck shares his reflections on how the Outfit has evolved, from its heyday of dominance in gambling, loansharking, and union racketeering to its much smaller—yet still persistent—presence today.
Together, we revisit the Outfit’s historic ties to the Teamsters, the Strawman trials, and the legendary names like Anthony Accardo who shaped Chicago’s mob identity. Chuck solves a mystery and provides the name of the man who killed Sam Giancana.
Chuck also offers personal insights into how mob families navigated the push and pull of blood ties, with some members rising into notoriety while others tried to lead straight lives under the shadow of organized crime.
Our conversation shifts to Chuck’s recent investigative work on the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa, exploring the long-standing theories and mob connections that keep the story alive decades later.
This episode blends history, reflection, and storytelling—offering both an inside look at Chicago’s Outfit and a reminder of why these stories still captivate us today.
1:02 The Legacy of John Drummond
4:11 Current Status of the Outfit
7:28 The Last of the Spilotro Family
10:02 Family Dynamics of the Spilotros
13:18 Frank Calabrese’s Las Vegas Fame
13:25 Giancana’s Murder Investigation and who did it
18:18 Surveillance in the Giancana Case
22:03 The Straw Man Trials
25:40 Ken Eto’s Gangland Story
27:52 Investigating Jimmy Hoffa’s Disappearance
31:03 Closing Thoughts with Chuck Goudie
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Transcript
[0:00] Well, hey, welcome all you wiretappers out there. Good to be back here in the
[0:02] studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective here in Kansas City. And, you know, guys, I have, I was talking with a fan not too long ago from Chicago, I think on the, maybe the Facebook group, and he said, you need to do more Chicago stories. And I had to admit, I hadn’t done that many Chicago stories. I got caught up in New York a lot, It seemed like, and anyhow, we’re back to Chicago and another guy’s mentioned to another guy and we were talking and, and somebody said, I don’t remember who, maybe that original fan said you need to get Chuck Goudie on there. He’s been doing a lot of reporting on the outfit over the years. And I didn’t really know who Chuck was. So I started searching. He did a recent story about the death of the last spilotro brother, John spilotro. So I thought, man, this is, this is it. This is what I got to do. So welcome, Chuck Goudie from Chicago. Well, it’s quite an introduction. Some might call it a eulogy, but thankfully that’s not what he does.
[1:02] Really? Now, I think I told you earlier, you know, last time I interviewed a Chicago newsman, it was John Bulldog Drummond. Bulldog Drummond, I tell you what, he was the dean of Chicago newsmen, television newsmen, when it came to reporting on the mob. There’s no doubt about it. And so I really welcome you, Chuck. You’re kind of the new modern John Drummond. Thanks, Gary, for that. I’m happy to be mentioned in the same sentence or thought with John Drummond. I had the good fortune of working kind of side by side with him, different networks in the 1980s and into the 90s when he was still at it. And he certainly did. He set the stage for mob coverage in Chicago. The outfit, as it’s known here, and John is still up and at him. And the times that I’ve spoken to him recently, we talk about the fact that on TV news in Chicago, I’m kind of the last person standing to keep track of these things. And so it’s a heavy case of documents, as we say, to carry around these days. But there’s still interest in it in Chicago. with not only the history of it, but where things stand in 2025.
[2:20] Yeah, I’ve noticed that on the Facebook groups, and they’re real heavily participated in might be the right word, because a lot of comments, a lot of people know, a lot of family members of mob guys that seem like are participating. It’s true.
[2:37] So you got to be careful what you say if you live up there. Kind of like that here in Kansas City. I kind of have to be careful. We got all these family members around.
[2:45] That is true. Well, I’m always careful. And I do hear from people when I report on the deaths of old timers or even new guys who are trying to run the show these days. People do pay attention to it. That’s for sure. Yeah, they still got something going. What would you say, just to encapsulate what the outfit is today in Chicago?
[3:09] Well, there is a little bit of a range as to what the outfit status is these days, depending on who you talk to. The FBI still contends that the outfit is operating, that there are people who are still in positions of power, and that the street crews are still in place as they were even 50 years ago. Everybody seems to agree that it doesn’t have the numbers that it once did. And I think that that should be evident. Some people think there may be only 10 or 15 day-to-day active members of the Chicago mob these days. But I think most people agree that it’s in the dozens, but certainly no more than 100. And the rackets are the same, similar kinds of things. but not the amount of money trading hands these days. But they still run in the same circles.
[4:07] It’s still the same rackets that we saw decades ago in Chicago. Loan sharking, prostitution, a healthy, illegal gambling business that the outfit oversees, even as gambling largely is legal here and other places these days. Some union racketeering underway still. Um, so the same kinds of things, maybe just not as potent as it once was. Interesting.
[4:36] So speaking of the union racketeering now, let’s go back into history a little bit. You were in Kansas City during the straw man trials when that’s what really, to me, it was the peak of the outfit’s national influence at that point in time. Because they owned the Teamsters and the Teamsters Pension Fund and can make all those loans. So that was quite a time, wasn’t it? Those days of straw man in Kansas City was the heyday, certainly in terms of dollars changing hands and the interconnection between the Kansas City mob, Chicago outfit, Cleveland, to some degree, New York and some organized crime families in the Northeast. And then Las Vegas, obviously, was the linchpin of it all, at least when it came to straw man. Yeah. And that’s when really Tony spilotro, his name rose to the top. It wasn’t before I have a, I listened to a wiretap where Joe Augusto was in Las Vegas is reading a newspaper to Tuffy DeLuna about, uh, that there were, somebody was writing out there and said, uh, spilotro and Aiuppa moving West. And Nick Civella in the background says, oh, God.
[5:54] Well, as you know, there’s a body of thought that Tony spilotro basically engineered his own demise by the way he operated in public. And if he had just kept quiet and not been as public about it, he probably would still be around today. So we’re into the spilotro family. Yeah. The demise of the spilotro family. That’s John spilotro. I’d never heard of him. Tell the guy, and I don’t think most people have, tell us about him a little bit. I had never heard of John spilotro either. I probably saw him on a list of spilotro family members years ago, but he wasn’t a major player. He certainly kept the quietest of all the Spalatros, certainly far more than his brother Tony did.
[6:39] John spilotro lived in Vegas, Uh, apparently went out there with, uh, with the other brothers who landed in Vegas in the late seventies, early eighties. And, uh, and John spilotro kept quiet, although he was thought to be involved in, in a number of the rackets that the spilotro is most notably Tony got involved in, in the early days out there, the hole in the wall gang and other things that we’re familiar with. And so when I heard that John spilotro had died, I thought it was worth a TV news story, certainly here in Chicago. That’s a notorious family, infamous, if you will. And it was interesting to us, and I was to viewers, that this was the last of
[7:25] the spilotro crime family, as we put it. And so that was the story that we did a few weeks ago after hearing John had died. Now, I believe that he ran the gold rush, which was a notorious pawn shop and jewelry place and was a notorious fence for stolen goods from all over the southwest part of the United States. So he had to know something, didn’t he?
[7:52] Absolutely. And I don’t think anybody disputes that. But back then, you knew that it was Tony who was in charge of the family business and the outfit business in Las Vegas. And so he kind of fell in the line and knew his place, I think. I talked to his son shortly after he died, who was an attorney, a very well-considered, well-regarded attorney in Las Vegas, talked about his father’s death. He knows exactly what happened over the years.
[8:26] It’s not a high point, especially for somebody who went to law school, is now a practicing member of the bar and knows how these things work. But it was still his father. And so he and I spoke kind of candidly for a few minutes about this. And it’s always an interesting story to me. And it’s one that I have told over the years. You have members of quote-unquote organized crime families, many of whom were known to the feds, did penitentiary time, were vigorously pursued and prosecuted by the authorities. Nobody more so than the splatros over the years, some of them in any case. But this young man, now a grown adult and a practicing attorney, he grew up surrounded by that, but the sins of his father were not and are not his sins. So it’s always something that’s fascinated me that you have members, honest and upstanding members of the Board of Trade, attorneys, doctors, dentists practicing in all sorts of different professional areas of life who may have had their tuition paid by organized crime money, but that wasn’t their fault either. And they are upstanding members of society, perhaps because of what they saw.
[9:51] Really? Yeah. That’s the Lattro family. They, they are, uh, they, they just say, they say it all from what you said.
[9:58] You know, Tony was, uh, was nothing but a stone mobster. That’s all he ever was. He got a brother who’s a dentist. He’s always been a dentist, real well known, well respected, well liked dentist in Chicago. He’s got michael who was an actor but yet must have dipped his toe into the mob stuff but not like tony did and then you’ve got john who was uh you know he was just around it seemed like he must be in the family dynamics he must have been the lost child or something the mascot but not the black sheep because he he certainly didn’t go clean his life so it’s a it’s a really interesting family and and it’s uh it’s one that uh i would imagine if your name’s spilatro most any place in the united states almost if you would you say it somebody’s gonna say oh or unique into that guy in las vegas well the casino movie certainly uh helped prop up that legacy for sure yeah and and they didn’t use the name spilatro but that character that joe petzi there’s no doubt in anybody’s mind, but that was Tony Splattro. He nailed him.
[11:09] And then, you know, since then, then that Frank Cullotta who worked with them became such a personality and was all over the internet and really kept all that going for quite a while. And so it’s a hell of a story. Still loving to interview a lot.
[11:26] A few times in Las Vegas, we would go out there and do TV with you and i just have this vision of frank collada being escorted down a hotel hallway to our interview and he would have these these security guards that he hired on each side of holding onto his millboat walking him into the room uh he wasn’t witness protection at that point as we all know but he surely liked playing that part yes he did he did and then you end up having a mob tour out there go figure frank calabrese jr he had a mob tour in chicago and he’s out in las vegas as the resident mobster now so he he does a really incredible job with that with that mob presentation i don’t know if you’ve ever seen it but he he i mean he’s the busiest man in show business in vegas these days he does four or five of these things a day yeah and by the end of the day, he’s, he’s exhausted and he does it, he does it five days a week at the mob museum. And then in between, I was just talking to Jeff Schumacher, who’s a program director out there. And he said in between, he like goes around and greets people and talks to them. And I’ve talked to more than one person that’s come back. So, oh yeah, I ran into him. I talked to him and nice guy. Yeah.
[12:46] We were just out there, um, a couple of months ago interviewing him and Schumacher for, um, a story that we worked up on the 50th anniversary of Sam Giancana’s murder. Oh, yeah. And so, um, had, that’s where I, I just saw the, the, the, uh, Frank Calabrese senior or junior rather, uh, presentation and, and people eat it up. That’s for sure. Yeah. And he’s, he’s so personal. He’s, I know him myself, talked to him several times, interviewed him once.
[13:16] And he’s a, he’s really seemed like he just a nice guy. And I think he was just somebody that just caught up in family dynamics that
[13:23] didn’t have a choice in what happened in his life. So, so you mentioned Giancana. If I remember right, you’ve got a pretty good Giancana story yourself. Set out rather here at NBC Chicago to just do a 50th anniversary piece in the month of May. The anniversary happened obviously in June, but we put it on the air in May, set out to do a story about the Giancana killing and what we know 50 years later. And as it turned out along the way, we had former federal prosecutors and FBI agents and documents that showed it really is not an unsolved case.
[14:03] It’s still an open case legally because the person who pulled the trigger is dead. But we did a story that pointed the finger in the eyes of the feds straight at Tony Accardo. And that he was the guy who was allowed into Giancana’s basement apartment that night. And that Tony Accardo personally pulled the trigger on Sam Giancana and then left. And that the feds are satisfied that that case was closed in their own minds with Accardo being the trigger man. The reaction to it in some mob watcher circles here in Chicago, interesting. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I’ve seen those. I have seen those reactions. Now, who was his…
[14:53] His driver that came back that night was blasey was he butch blasey that’s who i had always suspected oh and that’s that’s certainly what the what the word had been with with really no proof um yeah there is proof of the Accardo uh of the Accardo well okay and that’s what one of the things that we put into our reporting is that um you know the the caro home is located um you know a straight shot across a couple of suburbs from where Giancana lived. And the FBI had Accardo under surveillance at the time. And Accardo left shortly before the Giancana murder happened and returned hours afterward. And that’s one of the pieces of evidence that these federal prosecutors is cited. It’s interesting because people in Chicago know of Operation Family Secrets. It was the last big mob murder prosecution here 20 years ago or so. The Fed solved almost 20 gangland hits as part of that prosecution. What we found out is that the Giancotta murder was one of the unstated murders that they also saw.
[16:11] They made a tactical decision in the prosecutor’s office not to throw everything at the jury. And that Giancana’s murder was one of those that they held back on because they didn’t have any defendants connected to it, so they weren’t just going to put it out there for publicity. Yeah, and muddy up the works on their trial. Those federal prosecutors do not like to muddy up the works. I mean, they, they did solve 18 murders and even that was, that was a heavy lift for the jury to sort through all of that in a multi-defendant case. Plus the publicity of something like the Giancana murder would just, it would just go wild. It would have gone crazy in the middle of all that. That’s wild. Well, Anthony Accardo, I’ll be darned. And there’s good solid evidence that he did that. Part of it would be that he was under surveillance and he was missing and then he came back. They must have had like a fixed surveillance on him. They weren’t trying to follow him. They did have a fixed surveillance on his house and it was a couple of miles away. You know, this was at a time when the when the feds and Chicago police spent a lot more money on 24 hour surveillance than they would today.
[17:26] In cases like this, it was more commonplace than not for local intelligence units and the FBI to put people under surveillance if they knew that they were running some organized crime racket. Yeah. And if they knew there was something might happen to that, that, you know, you get some intelligence that some tip to something might happen while you really lock down on them, which brings up the point. And this is a much disputed point. And I’ve gotten arguments with the guys, you know, arguments, not really arguments, but discussions about, well, wasn’t there surveillance on Sam Giancana and everybody claimed that there was, and they were mysteriously pulled off. And, and my claim is, you know, maybe there was, maybe there wasn’t, but if you ever sat on a house where nothing happens, all night long, you might drift off. You might run and get something to eat. You might go buy a pack of smoke. You might go get some coffee and then come back by, or you might just,
[18:17] you know, maybe even go to sleep. So I don’t know. What do you learn about that? It was, uh, it was a Chicago police detail, um, that was assigned to the Gene Kanna, uh, surveillance.
[18:31] And I don’t know that it was as much, they were pulled off by somebody as it was, uh, It was 1030 at night. They had been sitting on the house all day. They saw people coming in, including one of Giancana’s daughters, bringing the infamous sausage and escarole over that Sam was cooking just as he was shot. But it may well have been that those people who the surveillance team saw go in, they left at 1030 or 1045 that night. And so the surveillance team called it a night, figuring that nothing else was going to happen.
[19:10] And from where they were sitting, it’s not real clear whether they would have seen.
[19:16] Uh, Tony Accardo go down the stairs from the driveway into the basement or not. So who knows whether they, they were still there at the time or not. Um, they may have been around the corner having a beer. Yeah. And that happens folks. That happens. I had a young detective that left early and, and the guy, she was watching at a bar. He came out and he was mad at the cleaners next door. And he, he had a Molotov cocktail and he threw it in the cleaner’s windows. And you know we were supposed to be there we were supposed to be there and she just got bored and it took off early which everybody’s done at one time or another i have to admit i have to, and we had a homeless guy down the street that saw let’s go down that’s how we know so it happens folks it happens oh but you know the you know the cops and robbers shows on tv yeah they portray surveillance, you pull up, you wait for 15 seconds and whatever he was supposed to be looking for happened. Well, that doesn’t happen in real life. It does not happen like that. Trust me. It does not happen. I’ve been on too many of them.
[20:24] So, you know, I guess I have, I have one comment about that and kind of my knowledge, knowledge of the mob and reading, look, look at a lot of wiretaps out of Kansas city here that like When Iupa was going to meet with Nick Savella up in Chicago, they were going to meet at Nick Savella’s nephew’s place. A guy named George Schiavola lived north side up there somewhere, kind of close to Wrigley Field, actually.
[20:50] And he was on the phone, and he told him to prepare a table with some antipasto and a lambrusco, I think, certain kind of wine, and get this all set. And these guys, when they’re going to have some kind of a sit-down, They often do have some kind of food like this. It’s like part and parcel of it. When they had a meeting that they brought lots of these guys from Las Vegas, uh, Joe Agosto and, and, uh, uh, the Peckerwood, uh, uh, uh, Carl, Carl, uh, Carl Thomas, when he brought Carl Thomas and Joe Agosto here, why they had one of their wives cooks, but getting meatballs and had it sitting down in this room. And they kept saying, well, Carl, you want some, you want some spaghetti? Meatballs are really good. And he kept saying, no, no, man, I got to meet a guy in San Francisco later tonight. So they’re expecting me out there. And so it’s common for them to have some kind of a meeting to have some food prepared for that so that he was expecting somebody to have come that would be some kind of a mob meeting i would say if you look at the weight that some of these outfit characters walked around with it’s easy to understand how pasta is at every meeting.
[22:04] Really now when you went to strongman trials i’m curious were you did you happen to be in Were you in the courtroom very much? I was in the courtroom every day. Um, that was back in the days when TV news had unlimited budgets and we could go someplace and spend a month working on, on a story, a trial like that. So I was there every day. Did you happen to see Ken Eto testify? I did. I thought that was interesting. I found a, uh, yeah, the picture there, you see the picture there? Yeah. Yeah. that picture they understand they had that picture they showed that to ken ito and then he pointed out how he knew iupa and he knew uh uh joey lombardo and uh jackie serone and what he knew about him in order to uh were you there that day yeah then solano um yeah that.
[22:57] That was quite a day. The Eto story, I mean, there aren’t many Chicago outfit stories that can rival the Ken Eto story and how he survived gangland hits. Oh, man, I know. It hit him in the head several times, didn’t it? And I’ve got his affidavit here, actually. And he says things like how Joey Iupa was a territorial boss for the organized crime family or outfit in Chicago. He had control of Cicero. He said I even asked him to go to St. Louis back in the 60s and teach somebody how to run policy. I was talking to a St. Louis guy here not too long ago. They said, oh, my God, I never knew that before. So, I mean, he really laid it down. The straw man case with iupa showing up every day in a taxi cab and getting out of the cab and having the taxi driver get his walker out of the trunk and iupo would slowly make his way up those front steps um and i mean i think it might have been before they had a ramp even uh at the federal probably was yeah and it was great for the tv cameras because iupa moved so slowly that we ended up every day with three or four minutes of video of him.
[24:21] Seems like he took a swipe at you guys, wasn’t it, and what little bit of video I saw online.
[24:28] He was an ornery guy. That is for certain.
[24:33] Yeah, I tell you what. Oh, Ken Eto, he really, they used him, folks, and you remember, Chuck, they used him to say, yeah, there’s a mafia, and here’s how it works, is what they used him for. Boy, can you imagine being on that task force back then, and you find out that Ken Eto has survived a gangland assassination attempt, and his head’s bandaged up, and he wants to talk to agents. Oh, man. I interviewed that agent, Elaine Smith, who had been, she was one of the agents that kept going and knocking on his door. You know, how agents do, they like go out and knock on their door periodically. And so he said, Hey, I want to talk to Elaine Smith. They called her on vacation. She flew back immediately. He was huge. He was huge.
[25:25] Well, Ken Eto died before he could parlay his story into a windfall for his family. There was an attempt to try to make something of that from a book to Hollywood screenplays.
[25:40] And unfortunately for Eto and his family, he died before that could all be put together. Yeah, I started looking for him when I was doing podcasts. He hadn’t died not too long ago down in Georgia or somewhere. He really slowed down in Georgia, I believe. He had a heck of a story. I thought, boy, that’d be a good interview to get. You’re good.
[26:02] But, yeah, he was, I mean, for those of you that don’t know out there, Ken Ito was a Japanese-American. He did a little bit of time in the camps during World War II and ended up in Chicago and really ended up, describe his position, I’d say, in the outfit as far as their gambling rackets were concerned, Chuck. Well, I think he was considered to be the street boss, Rush Street, mostly near Northside gambling rackets. And he was this fairly quiet, unassuming Asian man.
[26:37] But when he showed up at your doorstep, he let it be known who he was representing. And he was well-connected and trusted by the outfit. And so when he ended up surviving that hit, there was some trepidation in the higher ranks of the Chicago mob because they knew that Ken Ito knew a lot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. As it says here, he’s talking about who Joey Lombardo’s connected to. He said he was just below Cerrone and Iupa in organizational hierarchy. He had performed hits and murders for the organization. You know, he used those kind of words that juries really like to hear in order. He became a made man and that kind of thing. So it was devastating as far as making them into a mafia family. He says, I also knew Angelo LaPietra, known to me as being a vicious and sadistic killer. You know, they had a way with words on that, didn’t they?
[27:44] Angelo LaPietro was not known as the hook for no reason. He had quite a reputation in outfit circles.
[27:53] So, Chuck, what are you working on today? Just wrapped up the Jimmy Hoffa coverage. 1975 was a big year in Gangland, Chicago and America. Of course, it was less than a month or so or the next month after Sam Giancana was killed, the Jimmy Hoffa vanished. And so I went to Detroit, spent a few days and did a couple of interviews with a former FBI head of the task force on Jimmy Hoffa. Also interviewed a couple of reformed Detroit mob figures about what happened to Hoffa.
[28:34] And while it’s not quite as strong as the Giancana evidence, there’s certainly a lot of thinking that the feds know and knew exactly what happened to Hoffa, but everybody involved in it is long dead. And so that case is never going to result in a prosecution either. Yes. Tell me. I believe that people do know what happened to Jimmy Hoffa. We know who perpetuated it and how it was done. Yeah, Scott, my friend Scott Bernstein in Detroit has done a thing on this, and he’s got that taco, the last of the taco family, I think, in Detroit that he’s working with. I assume you interviewed him, didn’t you? Novi Taco, or as they pronounce it there, Toco, which I had to be corrected on because in Chicago, we had a guy named Albert Caesar Taco, spelled this way, T-O-C-C-O, but in Detroit, I guess the family has long pronounced it Toco. Okay. All right. I’ve gotten in trouble. I pronounced it Taco because I got in huge trouble one time on the internet because they, well, you don’t know how to pronounce anything. Yeah. Everybody’s got an opinion, right? I mean, you know what they say.
[29:51] Yeah, that’s an interesting story that kind of makes more sense to me. I mean, Dan Moldea, who wrote the book, The Hoffa Wars, and he’s so 100% sure about taking the body back east. I always struggled with that one, taking the body back east. Yeah, but he certainly is convinced, as are some other people, that the body is still in that landfill in New Jersey. Yeah. Oh yeah. No doubt about it. But I think this new evidence that he’s probably was, uh, what was he incinerated or something up in, in, uh, Detroit. There was a gangland Detroit mafia-run sanitation company at the time that the belief is among many federal lawmen from back then that off his body, shortly after he was grabbed from the restaurant parking lot, he was killed and then taken to this disposal plant. And there was nothing left of them in very short order, that there was no cross-country trip and burial in a landfill. But Dan and others, they’re passionate about their beliefs that the body’s still there on the ground. Yes, they are.
[31:04] All right, Chuck Goudie from Chicago. I really appreciate you coming on the show, Chuck. This has been fun. It’s a pleasure to meet you. Anytime. You know, the mob here may be smaller, but there are still stories that come up. So always don’t hesitate to call. Okay, I will. Thanks a lot, Chuck. All right, take care.
[31:25] Don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So when you’re out on the streets there and you’re a big F-150, watch out for those little motorcycles when you’re out. If you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to the VA website. They’ll help with your drugs and alcohol problem if you’ve got that problem or gambling. If not, you can go to Anthony Ruggiano. know. He’s a counselor down in Florida. He’s got a hotline on his website. If you got a problem with gambling, most states will have, if you have gambling, most states will have a hotline number to call. Just have to search around for it. You know, I’ve always got stuff to sell. I got my books. I got my movies. They’re all on Amazon. Just go and I got links down below in the show notes and just go to my Amazon sales page and you can figure out what to do. I really appreciate y’all tuning in and we’ll keep coming back and doing this. Thanks guys.